#229 – Across the Spider-Verse — Canon Events & Miles vs. The Multiverse

Welcome to Marvel Maniac and MCU After Show. This is your host, Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest, back with you to talk about another Spider man story. We are going through our Spider man era here in Marvel Maniac and I cannot deny I love it. So today, as you can see by the title, we are talking about across the Spider Verse. Talked about into the Spider Verse a few weeks ago, just talked about Spider man noir, his intro in that movie. And. And now here we are at across the Spider Verse. This movie has so much in a small amount of time, even though the movie's running at about two and a half hours. I think they really dug into the story a little bit more this time. And the character work, opposed to it being more of a spectacle, it's more of a internal argument on who to side with and what is the right path to take on this journey of great power and great responsibility. Across the Spiderverse asks a question I never expected a Spider man movie to ask. What if saving your dad could destroy the universe? So, cards on the table right away. I love this movie. I love beautiful animation. It ends on a brutal cliffhanger. Three years later, still, we don't know what's gonna happen or what's going on. But the thing that stuck with me most wasn't Spot, even though I think he's a cool, not so villain of the week. As. As joked about in the movie. Foreign. It's about canon events. And I think canon events are. Are huge. And we'll talk a bit about those in this episode and break down this movie first. First of all, let's just get this out of the gates. Spider society is incredible. I mean, the amount of work it probably took them to make that whole sequence of about 30 to 40 minutes. In that world of the future, Spider Man 2099's future. I think what. Maybe, maybe some of the best animation I've ever seen. I mean, you could pause it on many points. They even have little comic book notes about some of the characters in the background. I didn't pause it because I wanted to get here to make this podcast and I wanted it to be fresh. So I wanted to watch it start to finish and without much pausing at all, was so, so invested in the movie. And there's thousands of spider people here. Thousands. And each one of them is different and unique and most likely has a history in the comics, if not a reference to something. And I bet there's some original ones in there too. There's so many. And you think you. You get a Lot of Spider man skins in the Spider man game. Well, take a look at this movie. Every Spider man you can imagine. T. Rex Spider Man. What the heck is his story? What is his Uncle Ben type? Canon event. The giant T. Rex Spider Man. What the heck? And he was thwipping. So he was smart enough to use his abilities. You know, just off the top of my head, I like the. The horse Cowboy Spider man. And his horse wore a mask. Like, he's like, what's the point of that mask? He's like, to keep his identity hidden, like from the other horses. That's insane. I have a lot of questions about just horse Spider man as. As he is. However, there's so much to talk about and I kind of want to keep this like, more of like a focused, you know, discussion, of course. But I'd say that the Spider Society is insane. I love Spider punk as well. He's a Fortnite skin that I never got. If he pops into the shop tonight or anytime soon, I'm getting him. I have the Gwen Spider Gwen probably. And I'll talk about this in a bit. Probably one of my favorite characters period of the series. And I'm probably gonna rep her in Fortnite tonight after watching all this. I play a lot of Fortnite if you don't. If you did not know that and. Yeah, well, we could talk about that if you want to email me marvelmaniacpodgmail.com. what is your favorite character, your favorite spider person, your favorite Fortnite skin from this movie? Because they made a bunch of them. And yeah, I'm very curious about what you guys think and how you took this big breath in of Spider man and the Spider Man Society. I mean, it just. It's just great. Spider Man India. I mean, we get to go to a whole world there just for like 20 minutes. And we keep learning throughout the movie that Miles is just making things worse and worse by doing this. But he's just honestly being the most true Spider Man. From what we learned who Spider man is, he's being the most true to Spider man and that's save everyone. Anyone, however, in whatever way is possible. Spider Woman on her motorcycle. Sick. They call Spider Gwen Spider Woman too, even though she's Spider Gwen to us. She wouldn't be doing that. She wouldn't be calling, putting her name in the title obviously of her superhero name. So I guess that makes sense. But I. I can't not call her Spider Gwen Miguel, complex antagonist slash. Someone who probably isn't fully wrong. Someone who isn't fully right. I was blown away by the complexity of all these characters. You'd think a Spider man team up movie, slash, multiversal, multiversal spanning story would be a little bit funny in a few ways. And it is. There are great moments of comedy throughout this crazy adventure. I find it pretty cool that they spent like an hour of the movie kind of setting up the arrival to the spider society and meeting Miguel. It's got a lot, a lot more time than when I saw it in theaters a while back. It takes a lot of time to develop Miles, the relationship with his family, Gwen, the relationship with her family, a little bit of resolution at the end with that. And her dad, the police chief. I love that. I think there's a full first full circle story for her there, which I'm a big fan of. But then the movie does something that genuinely bothered me. Why is everyone, every single Spider man, turning on Miles? Everyone, every Spider man wants to stop this guy from saving his dad. Do they even know? Because my Miguel just said, get Spider man. And all the Spider men start pointing at each other like the meme, like love. It had to happen. Couldn't have done it better. This movie is a freaking masterpiece, like I said. But I did expect at least some Spider man to side with Miles because almost every single one of them just blindly chases him. And almost everyone accepts Miguel's argument. And I just don't think your average Spider man would be against trying to save someone unless they all specifically knew about the canon events and have seen firsthand what happens if you stop a candid event. I don't, I don't. I don't know if that was fully fleshed out. That's maybe my one critique. I. And maybe there were Spider men's that just stood there, saw the whole action sequence pass by them and said, hey, he's got to do what he's got to do. He's. He's just chasing his responsibility. I don't mean to abuse that phrase too much, but it's kind of like the crux of everything. But yeah, maybe they've already lived through it, these spider men that are chasing Miles. Maybe they went through it and then got brought into the society by Miguel. And we're perfectly explained canon events. And they've been over it. Not over it like always love Uncle Ben, but the fact is they've been through it. And they can all make sense of the fact that if Uncle Ben didn't die as Peter B. Parker mentions in the movie with his daughter which is adorable, by the way. He says a lot of us wouldn't become Spider man if it wasn't for Uncle Ben. So that's crazy. Let's just talk a little bit more about Miguel o'. Hara. Is he a villain or a hero or an anti hero? Because Miguel really isn't really evil. He's just trying to save reality on a bigger, more multiversal front. Trying to keep it all together, trying to save reality. And I think that's really important when considering his actions. However, you know, the universe is collapsing. Can and events protecting the multiverse, that's all in. All in his agenda. But this blind spot of him not listening to Miles, I think is a big deal for me. I think he puts his fist down and tells Mile. Miles how to think. I don't think they showed Miles the correct way of how this all works. I think his angry, kind of mean side. Miguel o', Hara, he's just kind of a mean, meaner, grittier Spider Man. He. He probably didn't connect with Miles nearly at all and wasn't able to say the right combination of words to get Miles to understand what the candid events really meant. He doesn't show much compassion either, though. He just locks him in a laser cage and the answer is already decided, no matter what Miles has to say. We know Miguel o' Hara is operating from trauma because he went to a universe, caused an anomaly because he saw they lost the Spider Man. So he went to be the other Miguel o' Hara and take his place, but it didn't work out. And that probably is running him. He wants a family, doesn't have one. He's seen the consequences of multiversal anomalies, but he's still standing there alive. What did he have to do to fix that? You know, it's. There's a lot of complicated questions just for a simple. It's not just a simple Spider man movie. And I mean, if I'm going to be fully honest, Miguel feels less like a villain and more like a spider man who lost hope. And I find that extremely interesting. So, canon events, we've been kind of circling that for this whole conversation. And let's talk about the MCU connection while we're at it. So there's an episode of Marvel's what if Season one. I feel like maybe the most important season because they lay down a ground rule in just one episode in the middle of the season. One of my favorite episodes of all time is what if Dr. Strange lost his heart and not his hands and Then that movie, he loses Christine in a car crash and he tries to save her with the Time Stone over and over and over again until the Ancient One comes around and says, look, she, her dying is an absolute point in time. You cannot change what this is. This is, this is like an event that makes you so you can't just change it. You can't have her back. The universe will kill her in a million other different ways if you try to correct it. And that's what we find out. An absolute point in time is certain events must happen and changing them breaks reality. So canon events are absolute points in time because this isn't just some separate Sony Spider verse movie. They are, I think honoring the real multiverse. They show an image of what the multiverse looks like and it looks identical to the MCUs. We don't see the tree of Idrisil that Loki's holding up. Because if I'm not correct, I think they would have referenced it personally. I think we would have seen it green if this movie came out after Loki Season 2. But this came out mid 2023, literally just about three years ago. From right now where I'm sitting, it was June 3, 2023, three years later and give or take a couple days. But they do reference no Way home. Now don't get me started on Dr. Strange and the little torp from 19999. I thought we were 616. I think this debate is going to have to be really solved in Doomsday or Secret Wars. Which number are we relying our MCU, the main one, to be the reference to Dr. Stranger Peter Parker in their multiverse Chaos. It's a beautiful reference just to tell us we are all watching a multiversal story that can extend its arm out to the ones we know in the MCU and combine canon, our canon. See, it's so meta. The movie is so freaking meta. And that's one of the best parts about it. But it's also maybe one of the most brain breaking parts about it. You can think for days about like consequences and who is right. And I mean we're gonna talk about that. And it's just literally a second. But canon events almost feel like Spider Man's versions of absolute points in time to me that they're one in the same. They're just named different because they're from different ends of the multiverse. But they both come to an understanding that there are some things you can't change and there are some things that need to happen. But my take Miles is right. Why? Well, Miles, in my opinion, he already had his canon event. I mentioned this a little bit even in the into the Spider Verse movie. The first one when I was questioning I gotta see across spider verse again. Why? Why does his dad have to die if Uncle Aaron died? I mean, Uncle Aaron was a loss that truly mattered to Miles. He died in his arms. Just like the little glimpses they show of all the Peter Parkers losing someone. He's literally an uncle too. Like Uncle Ben, Uncle Aaron. That loss mattered. It shaped Miles Morales and becoming Spider man, the best Spider man he could be to this day, that changed him forever. So why does Miles father have to die when Uncle Aaron died? That's where I wonder if Miguel's trying to control this so much. But we learn why Miguel's so particularly, let's just say interested and focused on Miles Morales because Miles was never meant to become Spider Man. He's attached to the multiversal anomaly that this spider came to a different universe. And the one that he was originally supposed to become, Spider man wasn't the version of Miles we know. It was the one we meet at the end. So he got bit by a radioactive spider from another universe. So immediately he is the first anomaly. He is breaking the multiverse just by, by existing. So my guess is Miguel thinks if he doesn't let his canon event happen where his dad dies, even though he already lost his Uncle Aaron, you know, it's not the, it's not the losing your uncle trope, it's the police chief trying to save somebody and dies. You know, Mr. Stacy, we see that happen. We, we get to see clips by the way of Andrew Garfield, the Spider man of Toby Maguire, Spider man of the Uncle Ben of that universe. I, I think that was a really cool thing. And just a side note, seeing Donald Glover, AKA Childish Gambino in a full on Prowler outfit and he was already hinted at being prob in the mcu. Can't wait for that day to come. I don't want that to be an like an obligated pass. I think they need to actually make that movie. And however long down the way, I do believe they're going to put Spider Man, Miles Morales, a version into the mcu. Most likely an original version that we haven't even met yet. Maybe it'll be set up in the next two Avengers. Maybe it'll happen in a couple years. After all the Avengers Doomsday and Secret wars era is over, the multiverse saga ends and we move on to different stories. I think that'll be really healthy for the mcu. Personally, I think Multiverse is kind of taking a little bit of a toll on people, even though I don't agree with everything, that the fans are kind of jumping and dog piling on. Like she Hulk at one point, like, she was cool. I think she Hulk should be more embraced, but I think the Eternal should be more embraced, but that's not what we're talking about today. We. I might do an episode of In Defense of the Eternals. I already have a nice episode in the works about defending she Hulk. Hold your questions at the door. I'm going to try and bring up some decent points, but at the end of the day, people are going to feel how they want to feel. And that's what's great about these stories, is they bring a lot out of people. The complexity of knowing who won who, who is wrong, who is right, Miguel or Miles. You know, that's a complex situation. And the spot is a comedic relief up until the very end where he just keeps becoming more powerful. And all of a sudden, he is Miles Morales's arch nemesis, born of the same collision disaster that Miles stopped. Man, that was just the beginning of that story. Now let's talk about Gwen Stacy. Gwen. Gwen. Gwen Spider. Gwen. I love her story. I think she's maybe my favorite character in the whole movie, if I'm honest with you. The opening sequence with her drumming, you know, I thought I. I know she's a drummer in the comics. She kicks so much acid drumming. I think I want to make her drum in Fortnite now. I'm sorry. I'm a Fortnite maniac. It's like I'm a Marvel maniac. They have a lot of cool Marvel stuff in there. And if you're ever curious, if you ever want to assemble some Avengers, hey, maybe I'll give you a chance to run a few with me one of these days. I like the watercolor style of Gwen's world. I love the really. How complex the relationship with her dad was because Peter Parker died in her universe because he was like a version of the Lizard. And all her dad saw was him, Gwen, standing over his body, Peter's body. And, you know, he died. It's so tragic. Such a tragic backstory, you know, from the very beginning of the movie. And she has her whole own story, which I think is brilliant. And it. And it unfolds kind of as a betrayal to Miles the last time they see each other. Because, you know, you hear about Gwen having a team okay, that's crazy. And then. Oh, my God. The A. SP Spider society. Why am I the last one here? It's because he's the reason they're all there. So that's. That's what I'm guessing is why all the other Spider men didn't side with him. But I don't like the hive mind mentality that every single Spider Man's going to go chase Miles Morales because he doesn't want his dad to die. I feel like that's naturally a Spider man instinct, in my opinion, that people want to save the. The dad. And I don't know what Gwen. Gwen's thoughts are on her own dad dying because of canon events. And maybe that's why Miguel was hesitant to take her as well as the reason of Miles being special to her in their own unique way. And we get a lot of good moments with them before the multiversal across the spider verse journey happens. Like I said, an hour of build up kind of to until they like unravel on the adventure, which I think is really good. There's an authentic connection you have to Gwen Stacy in this movie more than the first one where you get to meet her. You kind of get to know her, get inside her head, see her relationship with her father, which is somewhat resolved by the end of it. By the end of the movie, he kind of gives her the go ahead to go do the multiversal stuff. And they have a really sweet exchange, which made me happy. One of the happier moments at the end of the movie and before the cliffhanger. So before we wrap up here, let's talk about. What do you think? I'm gonna say Secret Wars. Will these characters appear in Avengers, Secret Wars? Miles Morales, Gwen Stacy, Spider Gwen. I think those are two characters that might have to. Are Sonia Marvel intentionally waiting? Like, could Miles and Gwen appear before beyond the spider verse, the final of this trilogy. Are they saving those characters for Secret Wars? Are there going to be variants similar to Spider Noir? You know, not exactly the same exact versions of Spider Gwen and Miles Morales that we know, but like very similar variants. So they could show up on the big battlefield in Secret Wars. They wouldn't be connecting all the way back to mcu, our main timeline, even as a reference, or showing all the other Toby Maguire, Andrew Garfield, Spider man moments. They're all connected and they're all linked back to the MCU in one way or another. I think the only comparison I can make is like Space Jam, who Framed Roger Rabbit? Like the cartoon characters can exist in the same world and setting as the human, you know, three dimensional our world characters. And I want to see that that animated side be take a little bit of this movie and put it in there. Maybe they even visit one of the universes if they have time. Because if the multiverse collapses into a battle world scenario, if you're a speculator like me, wondering what doomsday is going to end like, I mean, I don't. I don't know, maybe. I don't know. It stumbles me because there's so many things they can do that I wonder how much if they do show up in Secret wars, it will integrate into this story. That's why I think, will it be variants of them or will it just be them? You know, I don't know. But if it's true, Marvel may be sitting on two of the most beloved Spider man characters ever created and having them enter the MCU as homage to another era. That this multiverse movie that started the multiverse craze. Marvel was still sitting on Infinity War when they put the first movie out of Spider Verse. So I think it's really honestly an awesome idea, but it has to be executed right? So my main question thesis to this episode, even though I kind of rant it all over the place like I do, this is Marvel maniac here. We. We do it in our own way. Should Miles Morales be forced to accept a canon event or should he fight to save his father? Should he even bring up the point that Uncle Aaron was his canon event? Can he argue that? Does he have to lose both his father and Uncle Aaron because at the end of the movie, his father wasn't in that universe. His father was gone. Uncle Aaron was there. Not both of them. Not both of them gone. However, this whole universe has pretty much gone to hell because there's no Spider man ever there to protect it. So the Prowler, Miles Morales could be an anti hero. He just looks kind of evil because he's got braids. And Uncle Aaron is kind of suspicious. But what are they doing in the shadows over there? Are they contributing to the crime? Or are they actually using the Prowler to be the city's hero? Personally, I like to see the anti hero take on them. And I think the movie will open up with a situation where someone needs a saving. Something big's happening. And him and Miles and himself, the Prowler version of him from that universe will team up. Something. Something big is going to go down there in the next movie, beyond the Spider Verse. Whenever that happens, I'D like to think that they're just working on another amazing movie with insane animation and art. This movie is a work of art. The first one is a work of art. It's labor. It's people putting time and effort into every frame of a movie. You could just feel the love that went into this movie. And definitely one of my all time favorite Spider man movies. Maybe I'll make a list one of these days and oh my gosh, don't make me do that. That would be so hard. We have so many Spider man things to talk about. We could speculate about no Way Home All Day, which I've been kind of putting back and off because personally I think they've let out just enough information to where I don't know what the heck is gonna happen in Spider Man. No Way Home. You know, Miles Morales could show up in there for all we know. We don't know anything can happen. And that's just for another episode. I probably will put a speculation episode out before Spider Man Brand New Day comes out. I mean it's a lot to talk about, a lot to think about. And going in. It's always fun to kind of put put in a few predictions since we don't really know the full gist of everything that's going to go down. And I think that has to do with cameos personally. Cameos they don't want to be revealed. Surprises that they're doing everything they can to keep on the DL and don't look up pop figures for the freaking movie because it shows you something that's kind of a spoiler. So a little warning there. Save your pop figure venture for after here viewing of across the no, sorry, not across the status of A Brand New Day. Across the spider verse though. 5 out of 5 masterpiece. I called it that 4 to 5 times. I had such a fun time watching it. I had to jump right over to the computer and talk to you about it. And that's about our time. But I want to say that if you enjoy the show, it would mean a lot if you could rate us. It goes the longest way possible. It helps us get out there to other listeners like you. And I know you're out there and I appreciate you listening, sending you humble, beautiful souls. I hope that you're enjoying Marvel and kind of an off Marvel period where Daredevil is done and we're just waiting for Spider man brand new day to come out and it's kind of a beautiful time to be a Spider man fan. It's a beautiful time to be a Marvel fan and re watching these movies is just my favorite thing to do. I know it's not the last time I'm gonna have seen this movie, and I know that there's more to come and that's just what's the most exciting about it. We, we are living it out. Marvelmaniacpod Gmail.com with your thoughts and join our Discord server. It is in the description of this episode slash notes and we would love to have you there. Talk, talk, theorize, whatever it may be. We're a small community on there so far and if you join, you will get cookies. Not true. And I don't know why so many people just promise cookies to people for, you know, coming out. Come hang out. You're completely welcome. Don't hesitate. Well, that's gonna be it for today. And I'm your host, Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest. And until next time, Spider man swing away. And with great power comes great responsibility. That has to be said no matter what.