#198 – Phase One vs. The Multiverse Saga

There was an idea to bring together a group of remarkable people to see if they could become something more. To see if they could work together when we needed them to, to fight the battles that we never could. There was an idea. That line is why we're here tonight. Because the idea didn't end with the Battle of New York. It kept echoing. It became the heartbeat of an entire generation of storytelling. Welcome back to Marvel Maniac and MCU After Show. This is your host, Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest. Back with you for a reflection on phase one, how it's set up, the following stories that are still unraveling and what made it so special, and the OG phase that set up the Marvel we knew and know today. The MCU has grown, changed and splintered and stretched to multiversal proportions. But at its core, that original idea still stands. It's mind blowing to me that the Avengers itself came out in 2012, a solid 15 years ago. That movie was defining for me as a fan of Marvel, and I think anyone who was sitting there for that in theaters knew how truly special it was. It sets up the rest of the Infinity Saga perfectly. However, the intros to the characters, their time is taken. Each character gets the spotlight. Iron Man a little bit more because he's right up there as main character material with Captain America. I'd say in the Avengers, they're the two main characters up to wherever we'll, whatever we'll be seeing in Doomsday. We're not here to talk as much about that, but we will touch on in a bit. I loved the adventures and it wasn't just because it was the Avengers. It was because of Iron man, Iron Man 2, the Incredible Hulk, Captain America, the First Avenger and Thor. These movies built stepping stones into the Avengers just so that first hint of a crossover is even in the first scene. Let's just say with Nick Fury and Eric Selvig, meaning Loki. I mean this was the cross a crossover that we didn't see a lot. There wasn't too many culmination movies like this where a big event is culminated from the previous events of multiple different films. It made you feel special for knowing what came before it, why Loki is attacking Earth, how Iron man got that kind of cocky swag ego that actually works in the Avengers movie itself because we know Tony from his own films. Thor still finding himself. Thor is an ever evolving character and I love the first few Thors. I think it gets harped on because he's not like Ragnarok Thor always Thor is a developing character. He's like a thousand years old. And we get to see him in a place where he's accomplished a lot of stuff, but he's still got to learn a little bit about himself to be completely worthy of that hammer. Captain America the First Avenger takes us back to World War II. I mean, we're jumping all over the place, yet we're in just a small series of movies. The constant throughout. We get to meet the Tesseract in Captain America, the First Avenger, and it's a huge part to play in the Avengers. Certain items, decisions, they all lead up to the Avengers in the perfect way. We even meet Hawkeye in Thor, and we meet Natasha Romanov in Iron Man 2. Nick Fury is assembling these Avengers right before our eyes. And before you know it, we're there in 2012 in the movie theater or maybe years later at home on your couch, because not everyone found the MCU or was around or maybe wasn't even old enough to go see this movie. It's making me realize how long this has been going and how it still has its talons in me in the best way possible. The spark of 2012, it just burns. More than 10 years later, it's still here. And especially when you hear Fury's voice delivering that line. There was an idea, and there was a trailer for Infinity War that wasn't in the movie. I don't know how why they'd say it in the movie, but it was very cool because it had all the Avengers saying different lines from that monologue that I opened up with. That's how powerful that that monologue was. And it's what cemented the Avengers into being actually being the Avengers. So let's talk about this underdog blueprint a little bit. Phase One, it was just never guaranteed, right? Iron man wasn't a safe bet. Chris Evans wasn't the obvious Captain America, and Thor was a Shakespearean gamble. Doth mother know you wear her drapes? I think I butchered that. Seen the movie a million times. Still can't quote it perfectly. And yet it worked because it wasn't trying to chase trends. It was trying to build belief. That is the secret. The MCU didn't start with Gods. It started with doubt. And that's what made it human. I know what it's like personally to feel like the long shot, to wonder if what you're building even matters, like in my podcast. And then one day, it hits someone right in the heart, and that's belief manifested. I could do this podcast forever, knowing that there's a few really good hearted people inspired by it and enjoying it. I love talking about Marvel and going back to this face, which we really only covered very early in the podcast. I think it's very special and I thought it deserved its own episode again. So let's talk about the promise of a post credit scene and what made that so powerful and going forward at Marvel, the most important shot of Phase one, it wasn't a battle, it was a grin. That purple grin from Thanos. It wasn't just about a villain, it was a promise. Stick with us, we're going somewhere, it said. That's what separated Marvel from everyone else. They trusted us with mystery and then they built a bond through anticipation. And I won't lie, there's a lot I miss about that energy and the Slowburn confidence of fantasy Phase One. Just getting each franchise up on its feet over the course of about four, maybe five years, I think four years. It's the fact that me as a audience member didn't know and we, in a sense, many of us didn't know who Thanos really was as just moviegoers, but we felt the world just get bigger. To see my comic book friends and just people get all freaked out about Thanos and how exciting that that promise was. It made me a bigger fan and it drew a connection between comic book read and people who just loved going to see superhero movies. It gave the people in the movies a perspective of, wow, this is what these comic book fans have been a bigger fan of all along. This is what's going on in the comic book world. Maybe I'll pick a comic up. Me personally, I didn't not. And that doesn't say anything about my love for Marvel. I think comics are amazing and if these stories are to be made, they should be completely based off of the source material and the very special, very special thing Stan Lee did by creating Marvel in general. And that's what Marvel can tap back into now. The quiet kind of power that doesn't need to shout. And a good sign that they're kind of coming back around to this is this next Phase six. There's a lot going on in the TV world and a lot of what's going on in the TV world is animation stuff that's definitely part of the Multiverse, but a little bit separate from the main story of the Multiverse saga. Following the Infinity Saga. Putting Thanos at the end of that Avengers post credit scene was powerful and it kept people waiting for Infinity War. All the way up through 2018 when he finally made his big screen debut. I won't go too far into Thanos today because really, that post credit scene, it started a bigger chain of events. But what the post credit scene in general means for all of these movies, I think, is I think his post credit scene showed how big a post credit scene could be. There have been some better than others. I'm thinking of the drumming Ant at the end of Ant man and the Wasp. That's more of an eerie one. And I think the idea of having one villain straight from the start, knowing he's the overarching villain that we're going to see fought at the end of the saga, I think it's powerful. However, Marvel didn't know what was going to happen with Jonathan Majors and Kang. I don't even want to talk about it. I'm sick of that. Maybe the new promise in the Multiverse saga is already hidden in plain sight. Maybe Kang was just the opening chapter. And maybe they will still utilize what they built up with Kane the Conqueror. Because it's been some time since that controversy. And Jonathan Majors, to my knowledge, has proved innocent. Maybe Dr. Doom coming up in the Multiverse saga at the end in Phase six as the main villain out of nowhere, maybe he isn't who we think he is. What if, just maybe, just what If Robert Downey Jr. Isn't doom at all? Maybe he's Tony again and Doom, someone we've already met, reshaping everything behind the curtain. Them giving us this idea that Robert Downey Jr. Could be Dr. Doom. Not that I want that to happen, not that I hate him as Doom, but the idea that they're going to subvert our expectations through this is what Robert Downey Jr. Is going to play in this movie. It's similar to this in a bigger way, to the trailer for Infinity War, where Hulk and all the Avengers are running together like unified big, angry Hulk. And that's not what made the movie. He was not big angry Hulk. He was Mark Ruffalo and I'm sorry, Bruce Banner in the Hulkbuster suit, which is powerful in itself, and it completely did. It brought a moment to the movie that we did not expect. There's so much expectation and criticism and optimism at the same time about Tony being Dr. Doom. However, we don't know where it's going. The movie still comes out in a year. There could be a Council of Dr. Dooms. Robert Downey Jr. Could have one similar. It'd be something hilarious if they killed him off and Revealed someone else that we know behind the scenes has been Doom all along. And this was just to get Robert Downey Jr. Out of the multiverse, put him back as Iron man and subverting everyone's expectations. What do you think of that? Is that a little too crazy? Marvelmaniacpod Gmail.com Give me your take. It's not that I necessarily want that. I think RDJ is going to kill it as Dr. Doom. I do believe that most likely he's playing Dr. Doom. If they did that Iron man thing, which I think they very well can still do, they very well can still bring back a variant of Tony Stark's Iron man. Rd. Rdj, I meant to say, and make it work in a way where he's from the multiverse, but he's not the main plot. I sure as hell hope that the iconic shot from the comics, it's going viral. That there was a hint that this was gonna happen in Doomsday, where Doom rips the spine out of Thanos and the whole skeletal system, he just rips it out of him to show how strong Doctor Doom really is. If he did that with Chris Evans, Captain America, or RDJ's Iron man, that would break the Internet in a way. I mean, that would be this heck of a start to a very dark movie. If he does it to a multiversal Thanos, it will still be cool. True to the comics, taking out the Big Bad in one second, showing us how strong the new Big Bad really is. We need moments like that. And we didn't know it was coming. With Loki in the first Avengers, that's the best part. It was a surprise. The ending, the fight. We knew there was going to be a team up. We didn't know how we'd get there. We didn't know how the Avengers would technically avenge Agent Phil Coulson. Before I get back to Phase One and without too much speculation into the Multiverse saga, when this is honoring Phase One for me, it's. It's a lot of what Phase One groundworked for the rest of the Multiverse saga and the whole Avengers story. You know, all this, all the phases. Right now through Phase six, which is just getting started. So Phase One built towards something monumental because it had direction with conviction. Every film nudged the universe forward. Not perfect, not perfectly, but purposefully. And I'd like to say, you know, the beginning of Phase One, it wasn't rushed, and I bet they would have gone a little quicker if they could have. But what they did was take out time to Flesh out the characters that would soon avenge together. I think that's really powerful. And they let the characters breathe and they let them sit in their own world, have their own triumphs, have their own defense feats and stories that lead them up to where we're all going see, to see them culminate. The Hulk was my least watched. Just because of recasting is hard for me. But it something we need to start accepting. I need to start accepting a little bit more because things like that just happen and it doesn't have to be a big multiversal explanation. Although I still believe that the first Incredible Hulk was a Multiverse movie before we even knew the the multiverse really was Loki. His existential boldness, and I think him as a villain, grew on me every time I rewatched the Avengers along with Thor. The fact that Loki's misguided and he wasn't really a son of Odin, and the emotion that Tom Hson puts into the character, it made, I mean it made for some really great scenes and character building. And that's something I really love about the MCU and how Phase one set up with world building, character building. And it gives such a strong foundation for everything that's sitting on top of it, which is so much now since the Multiverse saga especially started. Loki's character development, the grief and wand division and therapy of all that Spider man, no way home celebration of legacy, all go off the heart of Phase one the same DNA just mutating with the. With the times mutating. By the way, mutants. Huh? Huh? Coming along. The mutants are going to be joining us very soon. So let's talk actually just a little bit more about the Multiverse mirror. Okay. If Phase one was construction, the Multiverse saga is exploration. It's Marvel asking, what if the blueprint itself had infinite versions? We're not just watching stories, we're watching storytelling experiment in public. And that is so brave. That is science fiction with emotion. Every miss is still a swing. And I'd rather see Marvel take wild card creative swings than play it safe. Cough, cough. I like the turtles. So this is what made Phase One great as well. If we look back, it wasn't perfection, but it was possibility. It was powerful to see the heroes assemble. It's a simple thing now compared to the giant team up in like Avengers Infinity War. But at the time, I mean, think about how special that was. The success of that movie launched us to where we are today. And I absolutely am a die hard fan for life because of it. Let's Talk a little bit more about the Incredible Hulk. So the forgotten child of phase one or maybe the secret cousin. People skip it, but go back now and it's a time capsule. It feels different. Sure, new actor, new tone. But maybe that's the point. In a multiversal world, the movie suddenly fits. Maybe one day for all the continuity freaks like me, they'll make a AI version of Mark Ruffalo taking the spot of Edward Norton and we get to see him in his own origin. But for now, we can just pretend it's another universe's Hulk. Boom. Continuity saved. Everything that happens to Edward Norton and his Hulk happens in our multiverse, our 616. And the one movie we saw his story starred as was from a different universe. That would leave room for Edward Norton. Hulk return in Avengers, Secret wars or even Doomsday. That'd be cool. I mean, acknowledge the recasting. Bring back Terence Howard as roadie and have the two iron patriots slash war machines duke it out. I think that's the type of stuff that Secret wars is going to be made of. Secret wars, the big culmination, Doomsday. The epic build up to it. The assemble energy on top of it. That phase one slash the Avengers brought. Remembering that one perfect shot, the circle spin in the Avengers. The this is all the characters literally uniting in an epic shot, showing all of them. Iron man landing cap looking out in the distance at all the danger. Everyone kind of readying and readying themselves up for this big battle that's coming. That was the heartbeat of phase one, unity and chaos. The power of Avengers and what Tony did to save the universe. And it's just such a good. He didn't save the universe, save the Earth. He saves the universe universe later. So there's things coming that I think could continue to draw off of this energy. And I will admit the end of Phase five had a lot of that energy. In my opinion, the young Avengers should be here by now. But I believe if they use the same amount of heart, it'll be a fantastic movie because we know a lot of the characters that are gonna ideally be in that. The Thunderbolts and Fantastic Four, both of those legacies. I mean, New Avengers, Fantastic Four, both of the legacies of those movies are really solid. Both great beginning films to sequel movies that we could see. And you know what? We meet the Thunderbolts sl New Avengers, and they're going to be in the next Avengers movie. We meet the Fantastic Four, then they're going to be in the next. Like it's it's almost as if we're not worrying too much about sequels. We're worrying about laying the foundation out of these franchise, of this franchise of these characters. I mean, Thunderbolts was almost a mental health movie. And how beautiful is that? Saving someone out of their void, out of their darkness. The Fantastic Four. A grounded yet gigantic telling of the comic book accurate version. I've seen many fans say this is the definitive Fantastic Four. It's what they were meant to be like. It's what they were in the comics. All of these, including Sam Wilson's Avengers, who we've yet to see. But I think we can fill in the gaps that a lot of the people we'd expect to see are in his new Avengers, his real Avengers, I don't know what you want to call them. There's going to be some arguing amongst all the fighting in Doomsday about that. So the next Assemble moment won't just be nostalgia, it'll be renewal. Okay. I'm so excited. I mean, like, even just being a year out, we're close. It's gonna fly by. We'll be here talking and speculating all year while going over some of the best things, things that Marvel can put out, some great television. I'm excited for Wonder man coming out in January 26th. That's the next big show we're going to be talking about week to week. If you haven't seen the trailer for it, go check out Wonder Man. It looks like a fun show. I will touch on this again, but I was reminded recently that these stories reach people when they need them most. And that's what belief does. It keeps saving us in ways we don't even see. I don't know how many times I put on Iron man just to comfort myself through sickness, through bad times, through hard times, in good times, in bad times. You know, the fact is, we connect with these characters because they're fleshed out. We didn't just get Iron Man 1 and then the Avengers where. And we meet all the Avengers in Iron Man 1 and then they make the event. No, it wasn't rushed. It gave us time to breathe, to love Iron man as its own movie, not just to lead into something else. Taking the time to establish Tony Stark. I mean, I'm kind of riffing and saying some of the things I probably said a couple times before, but it really resonates. Iron Man 1 resonates so much. All of the phase one movies resonate so much with me. I loved phase one and I probably, I mean, if it were done wrong, it it, I wouldn't be here right now. I. I mean, there's so many movies that aren't even super greatly loved and criticized from the newer movies that I really did like because when Marvel takes steps in new directions, I think that's what's so special about them. So we're bound to get a couple of misses to get some of those out of the park hits. I don't know why I always use baseball metaphors so often, but that's just what I do. So phase one forever, right? Phase one worked because it never forgot the audience's role. And we still do care. Until next time, keep the spark alive and keep believing. And remember that the idea was never just about heroes. It was about us. Visit us on our patreon.com marvelmaniac we have minisodes. I'm gonna start doing something and it's going to be this. We're going to start releasing older episodes, our minisodes for free. So I'm going to start with five new episodes and every week one. As we release a new one, one more from the backlog will become available. That way, if any of you would like to come to our Patreon Channel just to be a part of the community, you don't have to pay a subscription fee. You can to support the show if you want, but it's never expected. Beyond appreciated. Michael Finney. I'm looking at you. You might hear me say Michael Finney a lot. That's because this man deserves the praise for listening to all these episodes. I'd say he's an OG here and he gets all the shout outs. I have someone else I'd like to shout out, but I'd rather get their consent first, I guess. But there's a lot of thanks I could give to even just the people who made these movies, really, because it's just my spark is still going. I. I believe yours is too. If you've listened this long into this podcast. It's just so perfect. The Marvel Cinematic Universe and all its flaws, all its messy glory. Deadpool and Wolverine, for example, that was a insane movie to drop during this saga. And it had the same heart as a Phase One movie movie, if you ask me. We will truly see if that smile from Thanos matches the post credit scene of Fantastic Four. Spoilers where we see the back of Dr. Doom talking to Baby Richards of the Fantastic Four. There's a lot of setup going on here and we're seeing comparisons. We will see if it all plays out no matter what. Phase one forever. That's what matters. Thank you so much for being here. Your dedication as a listener means that the world and you being here means everything to me. Until next week. Same time, same place. Avengers disassemble.