#208 – Loki: The Fork in the Road

Foreign. Welcome back to Marvel Maniac and MCU After Show. This is your host, Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest. And we are going straight into a new year with a great conversation about one of my comeback characters. One of my favorite, if not my favorite comeback character, if not my top favorite character in the MCU close to be Loki. We talked about Loki a bit on the show. There are villains you defeat, and then there are characters who change the shape of the story. Loki was never just the bad guy in Avengers, right? He was more the first character in the MCU who made us ask different question. And he killed 80 people. I mean, that, that line in the Avengers he's adopted. It's not about who wins, but it's who could this person become. When we meet Loki in Phase one, he's not trying to conquer Earth for power alone. He's trying to prove something to Odin, to Thor, and to himself. And I will say, after watching the Avengers pretty recently, seeing what the staff containing the Mind Stone does to people, which is kind of really great foreshadowing whether they meant to do that or not, I don't think they knew that the. The Mind Stone was in there. However, it works so well. The fact that Loki is a little bit like, a little more evil than we met him in the first movie, I mean, that could be explained as he's turned to the full dark side. But something about that scepter changed him. And what's wild is that the MCU didn't even finish Loki's story when he died. All the way up in Infinity War, it split. Actually, today I want to talk about Loki as a Phase one creation, an affinity saga casualty, and the most fascinating fork in the road the MCU has ever written. This isn't about hype. This is about character. So we'll start with Phase one. Loki. He is pure insecurity wrapped in theater. He's clever. He's theatrical, wounded, and constantly acting because acting is really how he survives. From Thor to the Avengers, Loki's core wound is simple. I was never supposed to be second. He learns that he's adopted. He learns that his brother is favored. And instead of processing that pain, he performs over it. That's why Loki doesn't rule quietly. He monologues. He grandstands. He wants witness. Somewhat another factor tying into the Mind Stone. I don't know if it gives him the knowledge of all the past of these characters, but he seems to have studied the Avengers and what all before they've even actually formed. He seems to know much about the Avengers Initiative. He knows enough about Black Widow to talk about the Red and her ledger, Drake Off's daughter and all that. He has knowledge of the Beast, meaning the Hulk. I'm assuming he knows who Iron man is. And Captain America might be the one wild card for Loki, because I, I'd assume that Loki didn't have much of a chance to learn about who he was in the time that he was setting this attack up with the Chitauri. We don't know a lot about how Loki teamed up with the Chitauri, except for the fact that it's, it's. It's kind of implied that Thanos put them together. So Loki can go to Earth, get what he wants, take the Tesseract for Thanos and rule. What he wants is a throne. He wants to rule the Earth, Midgard, because he wants to be a king. If he can't rule Asgard, he's going to take the place his brother loves, and he's going to take the place he knows he can have somewhat of a chance of conquering. And that's Earth. And that's a big giant move for him in general. While Avengers, Loki does want a throne. He doesn't just want a throne. He wants recognition. And here is the key phase one insight. Loki believes power will give him identity. That belief defines him, and it's wrong. He's go. He goes in blindly and completely committed to this. I think Loki versus Tony is such a cool combination. It's something that Loki even references. Tony makes a pretty big impact on Loki because in the TV show he does mention Tony quite a bit. It was closer to those events from TV show Loki's perspective because he jumped right out of Avengers into the tva. So it's like more recent memory for him. Something else. I really, really appreciate going from Thor to Avengers in Phase one. Loki's character arc is so well played by Tom Hiddleston. He loves playing the character. So it's the type of character that kind of like takes you out of the world and lets you kind of see, okay, this is an interesting threat for this group of people to fight. You may even underestimate him a bit. But he's a trickster, he's a schemer, and he gets around everyone pretty cleverly. He even tricks the Avengers into putting them in that exact cell where he apparently wanted to be so all hell could break loose and nearly completely ruin everything. I mean, he almost wins just there by dividing and conquering. But another thing I was going to say that I love about Tom Hson's performance is just the depth of it in general. For example, every time Thor confronts Loki about what he's doing, there's a couple of times I'd say there's like two or three main. Main moments in Avengers where Thor tries to get his brother to realize this is not what he needs. You can come home. That was his earliest beg. He didn't. He didn't hurt too many people. He did take a guy's eye out at that point, but he didn't, you know, send the Chitauri to attack Earth. There's weight in Tom Hson's performance here. There's hesitation. There's just a little bit on his face in that first interaction that completely grounds him as a character, not just a threat. I think the biggest moment, in that sense of those subtle reactions that Tom Hson places on the script is when the battle in New York has kind of just begun. Thor confronts Loki as Loki's kind of just taking in the war that's. That he wanted. It's his Christmas. He looks pretty happy. But then when Thor grabs a hold of him and says, look at this. Look. Look at what you're doing. Do you think this is going to lead to anything good? And you could see it all over Loki's body language and face. A split second, we see Loki look scared and almost like, can I stop this? But he says it's too late. And when he says it's too late, that's. That's the old Loki. That's the good and Loki, that's the him actually questioning what Thor is saying to him. And Thor is getting into his mind. So what does he do? He. He stabs Thor and he betrays Thor every second, every chance he gets in this movie. And it really shows Thor vulnerability, Thor's vulnerability and his heart as a character. But it also shows that Loki is so committed to what he started, even if he's changing his mind about it, he is in a mindset that. That he can't turn around now. This is how far he's gotten. And he wants to step forward into this king role over Earth and conquering Earth and fulfilling his mission more than just stopping everything, at least trying to help stop it. He might have known. I don't think he knew that Selvig put in a, you know, off switch with the Scepter and the Tesseract, but he did. And I'm sure if Loki wanted to change that, he'd find Selvig and he'd tell them to close the portal. But he thinks that through in a split second that we could see in his expression. And I think that's really powerful because it gives you a little more understanding of Loki that he's trying so hard to be a conqueror, to be a king, to be something that his father would maybe for some reason appreciate. I don't know that his. That Odin would love the Chitauri and him hurting innocent people and taking a planet hostage. Loki's way in over his head. That goes back to the Time Stone in the scepter and putting Loki a little bit more over the edge. He's already a master of mischief, but with that stone, with the scepter, he is completely committed to the war. And when I think when he stabs Thor, that's Thor's final like, okay, I'm not going to try and reason with him anymore. I'm going to do everything I can to stop this. And Loki's commitment, honestly, it makes it more threatening and it makes the whole experience a lot more fun. Also, that will he, won't he? Because we know he. There's good in him, even in these two movies. You can see the pain on his face in Thor. The first Thor, when he confronts Odin about being a Frost Giant and how he can never have a throne because technically he was just a peace offering that could one day unify those kingdoms. And that is not something that Loki wants at all. He wants power. And that goes hand in hand with Loki asking everyone to kneel to him versus demanding this type of worship. You. You were made to be ruled. And then he projects himself. I. Does this not feel right? Something like that. I think. I think, honestly, that scene really shows a lot about what Loki wants out of this. And it's loyalty and power. And he thinks he wants it, but I don't think he wants it as bad as he realizes. I don't think he wants so many people to die at his hand. I think he just wants the throne. It's as simple and childish as that. Now let's talk about what the entire Infinity Saga does beautifully with Loki. And it lets him grow, but it never lets him outrun consequence by Thor, Dark World and Ragnarok. Loki is changing. He loves Thor, even if he won't admit it. He chooses Asgard, even if he mocks it and he helps, even if he jokes. But Loki never gets the luxury of reinvention. He grows inside the same timeline that remembers who he was. And that's why his death in Infinity War, it just hits so Hard. Not because Loki dies, but because he finally acts without performance. No tricks, no illusions, no applause. Just choice. And then he's gone. Or so we thought. No resurrections this time. Anything Thanos says, you know, you think to believe 100% true. Because he freaking does not lack conviction. And he thinks Loki does. Thank you. The fact is, Thanos doesn't know everything. And that's a fun point to kind of just see the whole show of Loki span out and how much effect it has over everything. It is pretty hilarious that Thanos says no resurrections this time. Thanos, you do not know the multiverse yet, good sir. His final scene is so dramatic because what he does is something so Loki that it even hurts. Thor says, we lost. We don't have the Tesseract. It that was destroyed on Asgard during Ragnarok. And Thanos knows. And Loki knows that Thanos knows. Let's not use too many tricks here. Let's be honest. Here's the Tesseract. I did take it. And Thor says, you really are the worst, brother. A little bit of God of mischief is always in him. In the Infinity Saga, the sun will shine on us again, brother. I just love the dialect there. And. And, oh, he calls himself Odin's son, Kind of sounding like Odin's son, kind of finishing that arc of him not being a true Asgardian, but him dying as one. And it's less of a sacrifice, more of a statement. And that's what kind of stings the most. Loki is a pawn in Thanos's game. Thanos doesn't even go out of the way to actually kill many people on this journey, but he does exactly what the chitauri said in Avengers 1. He does. Thanos does what they warn him. He will pretty much kill you. He'll make you hurt. He'll make you long for something as good as hurt. Something like that. And I think that's kind of scary. But when it all comes crashing down on him with Thanos choking him to death, it is kind of hard to swallow. It is. It's a hard death. And it had to be permanent. You know, in a way, this is a permanent death. Despite what happens with Loki, the TV show, this is not the same Loki. He dies. And he dies in that exact frame of frame of mind where Loki's always going to be the God of mischief. He lived one, he died one. But at least he kind of saw full circle that he doesn't need to be a king or a God to have meaning in his life and to have love in his life and that's his brother and who his father was and, and how he was raised all those years. Rest in peace. Infinity Saga Loki. Now we have the most radical character move that Marvel has ever pulled in. Loki. The version who escapes during the time heist from Avengers Endgame doesn't get time to grow slowly. If you watch Loki in Thor and then Avengers and then imagine that split off where he gets away. The, the character arc persists straight into the show. Loki, which we're talking about. I, I don't want to say I say Loki too many times. Like is he talking about the show in general or is he talking about Loki? Well, right now we're talking about the show, but we're going to be saying the name Loki quite a bit. Doesn't get. It's not that confusing on screen. It's a little bit harder to describe. Loki doesn't earn redemption through years of experience because he's captured by the tva. So instead he's shown his entire life. His mother's death, his part in it, his reconciliation with Thor and then his own death. And all this in about an hour. One single episode of the first episode of that show. That TVA projection isn't just a shortcut. It's a psychological experiment. What happens when you remove denial from a character? Loki can't lie to himself anymore. He can't pretend he's misunderstood greatness. He's the end of the road. And he realizes power never saved him. That's when Loki finally asked the question Phase one never let him ask, if not a king, then who? And that Loki, the one stripped of illusion, isn't chasing thrones. He starts chasing meaning. The TVA is kind of like a therapy prison experiment for Loki. And it's a good one at that. He doesn't get treated like all the other variants because maybe someone, AKA Kang, is paving the way and wants this to happen. I, I truly believe that is a crazy context to put the whole series on and the whole everything on in a TV show for Marvel. And I still like to believe that's canon. I still like to believe that Kane will come back and at least fulfill the story that he a piece of it that, you know, was promised. But we're not talking about Doomsday or whatever the Avengers right now. We're talking about Loki. So I just think that the TVA does a lot of good for Loki. It lets him find a different meaning in helping. He gets to help. An evilr version of him is going around causing mischief and who else does Owen Wilson slash Mobius need? He needs the God of mischief himself, Loki. Our Loki. And there's a difference between earned growth versus force, clarity. And Loki gets a lot more earned growth starting in the show. That movie theater projection of him getting killed by Thanos and all of his life in the Infinity Saga, it really hits him like a bag of bricks. And he makes that character development and catches up that character development very, very quickly. And we get to see him on the ground. Just saying I was wrong, pretty much. And I think that's really powerful. I think it's powerful to put all that on the new character and see where that kind of combination and chemical friction of him having that knowledge where that will take him as a character. That's why I love the show. That's one of the reasons why I love the show. Loki. And this Loki feels older despite being earlier, technically, because we haven't seen this guy. This is a new guy. Yeah, there's the old Loki is in him, but he has a whole new value system. At one point, even him seeing Coulson, he kind of made fun of it. But when he saw it on the movie theater, the TVA room, it bothered him. It bothered him. The look on his face that Owen Wilson, I keep saying Owen Wilson, Mobius put points out. You like this. You were enjoying this when he was taking that guy's eye out. For Clint Barton to break into a facility to get something they need for the end of the end of the movie, with the Tesseract opening the wormhole. So let's talk about why Loki matters now. And here's the quiet truth. We don't build two Avengers movies just to open them by killing Loki again, if you know what I mean. Marvel doesn't bring this character through phase one, villainy, Infinity Saga, loss, multiverse, multiversal rebirth. Unless he's central to what comes next. Is what I'm saying is he's not going to die right at the beginning of Doomsday. There's clearly a bigger plan for this new Loki at the end of the series. Loki. And I won't spoil too much about that show, but I mean, if you're listening to this and you haven't seen the show, you should go watch the show and maybe stop listening, because I'm gonna. We're gonna be breaking that down. But Loki is a variable. Loki understands timelines, consequence, sacrifice, and choice in a way almost no one else does. And whether he becomes a guardian, a guide, or a cautionary figure, his role won't be about conquest in Avengers Doomsday, it'll be about direction. And that feels right. I think Loki is super mega powerful, attack the center of the multiverse. I think that he's going to have a big, if not the hugest part to play in any movie he's ever had. I think he's going to actually be one of the main characters. And I think that's very special that Disney is using at least its best Disney plus show to tell the story of what we're going to be going through in the movie. And yeah, like in Infinity War, when Wong shows the Infinity Stones and does an introduction with Dr. Strange to Tony and Bruce about what they are, what they do, what they're about, it also tells the audience who might not have seen the series a little bit about the Infinity Stones. They're gonna have to do that with Loki becoming the center of the multiverse, obviously, for the newcomers just to give a little bit of an explanation as to why he's the one holding everything together. So many things Loki can do. Project himself across the multiverse similar to how he doubles himself in battles earlier on. I think he'll be able to double himself from the center of the multiverse out into the multiverse to assemble us multiversal Avengers. I think there's going to be like, three, four teams just figuring out what Doom is doing, and each one will have a part to play. But it'll also send those different universes maybe against each other at first, you know, similar to when the Guardians met Tony, but on a bigger scale. Talking about Infinity War on a bigger scale, you know, that fight will happen. But at one point, all the teams need to kind of unify and realize, oh, this is the biggest threat we've all ever faced. We need to team up if that ever even gets the chance of happening. It seems like a long shot, knowing how separate these universes are, but if one gets destroyed and some of the heroes make it off into another one of the hero's worlds, they'll have no choice but to actually team up with them. Even without fully believing what they're capable of or what they're saying is true. Even though we all know. Well, I hope that we'd all know that most of the characters that do team up with other teams and whatnot, like the Thunderbolts, New Avengers with, you know, Sam Wilson's Avengers, they team up. I like to see that. I like to see that reconciliation where it's bigger than everyone. And Bucky and Sam both kind of reconcile because we get that post credit scene in Thunderbolts where, you know, they're apparently at odds end about the Avengers. And that's another day. It's a conversation for another day. Anyway, what phase one Loki wanted was a throne. But the Infinity Saga, Loki learned, was love and multiverse Loki, he learned truth. That's not escalation. That's evolution. And when we talk about beginnings and endings in the mcu, Loki proves something important. The most powerful characters aren't the strongest. They're the ones who change. And Loki changed the long way and the fast way both matter. And wherever his story goes next, Loki won't change, be the villain at the door. He'll be the one who knocks. He'll be the one who understands what's on the other side. And that's really the main story of Loki. Not a villain who became a hero, not a trickster who learned a lesson, but a character who was finally forced to see himself and chose something better. Phase one gave us the beginning. The Multiverse gave us the question. And wherever this road leads next, Loki isn't chasing a throne anymore. He's standing at the crossroads, aware, awake, and finally honest. And that might be the most powerful place to be as a character, especially in the mcu. If you enjoyed this episode, the best way to support Marvel Maniac is simple and genuinely appreciated. Leave a 5 star rating wherever you're listening or thumbs up or whatever it is where you're listening. It helps the show reach people who love these stories the same way we do. And if you want even more Marvel Maniac Weekly minisodes, deeper dives, and behind the scenes support that keeps this show alive, you can find us at patreon.com marvelmaniac I'm gonna give a shout out to Michael Finney, our number one. Hi Michael. No pressure, just gratitude. Join us and join the [email protected] marvelmaniac thank you for listening, thank you for caring about these characters. And as always, thank you for being here. And until next time, Avengers disassemble.