#231 – In Defense of She-Hulk: Attorney at Law

Welcome back to Marvel Maniac and MCU after show. Thank you for being here. I'm Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest. And today we're reopening a case that a lot of Marvel fans decided was shut closed years ago. The case of she Hulk, attorney at law. Now, when this show came out, it felt like every single week there was another argument online. Some people loved it, some people hated it, some people thought it was one of the freshest things Marvel Studio had done. And I think I found that the people who thought that were the quiet people, the people who look forward to the week to week she Hulk for the for its entire run. I was one of those people you see in 2022 when she Hulk aired, I made an episode about this and I'm not going to get too far into personal stuff, but I was going through a tough time. But it helped me bring the podcast back online. The podcast was exactly what I needed for that time. And what I needed was a fun, light hearted show that I could talk week to week about. And that's what she Hulk was. There are some that thought it was the worst thing Marvel had ever released since. And you know, after revisiting this series recently, I did find myself asking a simple question. Were we the fans or subsection of fans too hard on she Hulk? Now, before everyone grabs their pitchforks, isn't going to be a claim that the show is perfect? Okay, it's not. The defense acknowledges the prosecution has some evidence, but after a few years of distance, I think she Hulk deserves a second look. So let's hear the case. So what was she Hulk actually trying to be? One of the biggest problems she Hulk faced wasn't necessarily what it was. It was what people wanted it to be. Expectations were all over the place for this one. So some viewers wanted a Hulk show where others wanted a daredevil show. And where some people wanted major MCU set up every week, others wanted a serious legal drama. I don't know how many of those people there are. I like the joke in the first episode where they say it's a lawyer show and they try and get that in our brains to just kind of also tell us. This isn't your average Marvel Studios project. It's original and that's something that I love about it. So instead, Marvel gave us something a bit smaller. A sitcom, a legal comedy, a slice of life story set inside the Marvel universe that we love. That I'm comforted by that I have been living in with these characters since 2008, when Iron man came out. And honestly, the show never pretended to be anything else. The title wasn't she Hulk, World War Hulk. It was she Hulk, Attorney at Law, Not She Hulk, Avengers Attorney. It. It was literally Attorney at Law. The mission statement was right there from day one. I mean, let's think about this. How many simple half hour Marvel shows do we have? Well, not many. And this show was a comedy with action elements. And I think the comedy worked if people would just take a load off their shoulders and just kick back and enjoy this show and not have it be the next pinnacle piece of the mcu. Because when we put it up on that pedestal before it even starts, you know, the Wong appearance isn't even enough for you or whoever else didn't like it. I was so happy to see Wong and Emil Blonsky, AKA the Abomination, he was so good to come back all the way from the first 2008 Edward Norton variant. Maybe it was 2009. However, the Edward Norton Hulk, and they even make a joke about that with Bruce Banner in the. In the show, he says, you know, she's asking Bruce if she can, you know, take him on as a client. You know, there might be some bad blood between the guys, but he sorted it out with apparent. Apparently Emil and Bruce sorted it out. And the joke was, I was a completely different person back then. There's not a fourth Wahlberg needed for that joke. I kind of love when things are acknowledged in that sense and we're not walking over inconsistencies and recasts like they never happened. Usually when there's a big recast, there is a little bit of a bit or a joke. Kind of like roadie in Iron Man 2. You know, I'm here, deal with it. You know, I love that. I love when they acknowledge the things that kind of bother me a little bit. Kind of like puts my mind at ease. Plus, I made an episode saying the Edward Norton's Hulk movie was totally a variant universe, almost identical to the one that we know where Ed Norton was. The Hulk and Mark Ruffalo wasn't two. Two different Hulks, two different timelines. Very similar sacred timeline stories. So I would like to see Edward Norton, Hulk and Secret wars, please. Thank you very much. That is exhibit A. The easiest thing to defend about she Hulk is Tatiana Maslany. Whether you loved the show or hated it, it's hard to argue that she wasn't perfectly cast. She has charisma. She has comedic timing. She feels different from most of our MCU protagonists at this point. Jennifer Walters isn't trying to save the multiverse. She's trying to navigate work, relationships, expectations, and occasionally becoming a 7 foot tall green superhero, which is essentially incredibly badass. And Maslany makes that balancing act feel believable. If you recast that role, I genuinely think the show becomes significant. Significantly weaker. And I don't know if I would have liked it as much as I do. I don't know if I'd be making this In Defense episode. Maybe I'd be here defending secret invasion or something like that. I would like to see the universe where that was really good. Every week on here, I've been bashing secret invasion, and I just want to let Samuel Jackson know he's fantastic. I wish he cameoed and she Hulk because that was where the party was at. And let me just break into this, okay, the twerking. The twerking, okay? Everybody talks and makes fun of the part where twerking is had between she Hulk and Megan Thee stallion. The Megan thee stallion episode was actually pretty funny. To actually get her in the show, give her a cameo, have, you know, a shapeshifter from Asgard, pretend to be her and rip a guy off. Loved it, honestly. And people are acting like the twerk was in the middle of the whole episode. The crux of an episode ruining the whole show. It was silly, it was funny. And you know what? I laughed when I laughed before I saw reactions. I thought that was funny. I liked it. And the twerking is my exhibit be to just show you how people overreacted at this being whatever show it was trying to be instead of the show everyone needed it to be or wanted it to be. And all those needs and expectations was on each individual, individual fan's shoulders. Okay? This show never lied about what it was. It, from the very get go, gave us a tone and continued to set that tone and expand upon it. And without Tatiana Maslany and the way she played this character, I just honestly couldn't see it go any other way. She's fantastic. I really want to see her in the Avengers. Even though at the end of this show, Kevin told her that she will not be in the next Avengers movie. I want a Season 2. If anything, I want her back in the role. I want her to know that there's probably a lot more people that did like she Hulk than it looked like online. The loudest people are the critics. The people who enjoy what is on in front of them might not be running to X or Twitter or Facebook or wherever, you know, tick Tock to tell the world they love this episode of she Hulk. They just kick packed and enjoyed it at week to week. And then the numbers on Disney plus have told us that she Hulk was one of the most consistently watched shows of any of the MCU shows either up to that point. I'm not positive or even through today, not positive on that exact stat, but I did hear that very recently. Now, one thing that always fascinated me about the reaction to she Hulk is how many people acted like the fourth wall breaking came out of nowhere. But comic readers know that that's not true. She Hulk was breaking the fourth wall long before Deadpool became famous for it. The character has always been weird. She's always been self aware. She's always played with the format. So when the show leaned into that aspect of the comics, I didn't see it as Marvel disrespecting the source material. I saw it as Marvel embracing one of the strangest parts of it. And you know, if you go back and listen to this episode, rough time for a Marvel Maniac. It's probably, we can call it like the Marvel Maniac Dark Ages. My mic was gone. I was going through a really rough year. I mean, not a rough day, not a week, basically just that entire year. And for me, it's hard to even listen back to the episodes because the heart was there and my passion was there. But the it sounds like I'm talking to you through like an AM radio on those episodes. So I did feel like coming back and talking about it here on my better mic, way further into Marvel Maniac than I could have ever imagined. And just talk a little bit about this show immediately. With the fourth wall breaking, which I loved, I thought was used fantastic to move the story along and to also just weirdly connect with the audience bringing you into the world, opposed to watching it just on the tv. It was a little bit cosmic in a way, in that sense. And all I could think of was an Avengers movie where Deadpool is is present and she Hulk is present. And a bit where they're both breaking the fourth wall and they both look crazy to each other or they both just kind of get it. I wanted that interaction. And right from I'd say the Daredevil episode, when we get to see her in her super outfit, I love that, man. We didn't even get there yet. Like Daredevil stole the freaking show. Let's be honest. We have to talk about it because whenever somebody discusses she Hulk, eventually the conversation does get there. And personally, I love seeing A lighter version of Matt Murdock for a change. Not because I don't love the darker Netflix stories or Born Again, which hadn't been out yet at that time. I absolutely love all of that. But the comic book Daredevil has always had a sense of humor. He flirts, he jokes, he smiles. He's not miserable every second of the day. And seeing that side of the character was a lot of fun. Plus, let's be honest, the walk of shame scene, it's one of the funniest visuals Marvel has ever put on Disney plus. And let's be honest, that was viral. That was hilarious. And at least I think most people can get on board to that being one of the funniest moments of the show. Daredevil was even sporting a brand new super suit. Yeah, that golden. That golden yellow. I kind of like that. Apparently it's very comic book accurate for whatever period in which he wore it. I don't know if we'll ever get to see him wear that again. It seems like when Daredevil Born Again is making its episodes, it sort of has its idea of what they want him to look like. That season, like the recent season, we had a black suit that slowly wore down to, like a red suit. I don't know if he spray painted the suit black. I don't know. I. I thought that was really cool. I have a pop figure of it, but a little bit off topic. It's just Matt Murdock fit with this character. And I think this character, she, Hulk, will go great with the other Defenders. She made a trip to New York. She helped Matt Murdock and Jessica Jones fight the street crime. I mean, she would be a comedic relief. She would be a great addition to the Defenders. And honestly, I think she. She's. She would be really good in an ensemble cast, just like she was probably cast to do. And I'm worried personally that they have caught her out or are going to keep cutting her out or even at even worse, recast her. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I would not be happy with that at all. You know, one thing that stands out when revisiting this show is how accurately it predicted some of the discourse surrounding it. Let's be fair. Not every criticism was invalid. Not saying that some people, they did not like the humor, others didn't like the structure, and some just didn't like the finale, which was a little bit out there. I can see what you're talking about. I understand there's. Those are perfectly good reasons and opinions, but there was Also a segment of the Internet that seemed angry before the show even aired. I was there. I was in the trenches. I was on Twitter X Whenever that change happened and when the show poked fun at that culture, the reaction often became exactly what the series was satirizing. Looking back years later, that's one of the most fascinating aspects of the entire project. The conversation around the show almost became part of the show itself. A few things off the top of my head that I really liked about the show, I. I liked how each episode had kind of its own pre. Own character building moments for Jen and world building moments for her as a hero, as she Hulk, for her to actually be doing superhero stuff. Even early on, I think some of the criticisms were that she wasn't enough of a superhero and more just a person trying to work out her identity. But I don't know any good origin story would be doing that. And by the end, she was doing some superhero stuff. Even in the episode with Wong and the magician, that was a hilarious episode and we got to see her fight off demons from another dimension. So when people say it didn't have enough action, I. I just have to disagree. When a show does character work, it's setting that character up for a really good long run in terms of the mcu, in terms of future projects and feeling comfortable with that character and knowing that character well enough so they don't have to explain every single bit of their personality in the movies. That if you watched the show, you know a little bit more about who Jen Walters is so you can enjoy her in said movies like Avengers or Team Ups or Defenders or whatever else they could put her in that I think she would fit fantastically and I think with age, okay, there's going to be some very good reflection upon the show kind of on that like now. But let's be honest, let's. Let's give the other side their. Dude. The defense is not claiming perfection. The CGI was inconsistent. Could have been much better. And a lot of times you could tell when they had to kind of rush it. I'm not going to lie, some of the jokes landed better than others. A few episodes felt lightweight. Sometimes we had a little bit of a side story going on that was. That felt less important than the main she Hulk narrative, which is what we were there for. And the finale, it remains one of the most divisive endings Marvel Studio has ever produced. Even as a person who appreciates what they were trying to do, I completely understand why that ending didn't work for everybody. Those criticisms Are fair now. The reason I've softened on she Hulk over time is because it feels different. In an era where Marvel was focused on multiverses, timelines, incursions, universe ending threats, and giant cosmic stakes, she Hulk was willing to be small. It asked questions like what is it actually like living in the world of superheroes? What does dating look like when you're a Hulk? Mean, green, and something about in them jeans. Great episode. What happens when your cousin is Bruce Banner and he expects you to be a superhero? What happens when being a potential Avenger isn't your entire personality? Those aren't earth shattering questions, but they're interesting ones. And I think that the MCU needs and needed projects like this. And while the show did have its cameos, Bruce Banner, Daredevil, Megan the Stallion, I'd say Tatiana Maslany carried us into the world of she Hulk a lot better than the audiences brought into some of the other shows that were being done that year. And I stand by that. I love the show. It's for. For the last time, it was a comfort show. Going back and watching it, I could fall asleep to it. Not because it's boring, but because I put on TV to fall asleep. Because I'm weird. If I put that on at night, I'm in a comfortable place, a light hearted place. A place where I don't have to think about the universe being snapped away. Even though I'm literally wearing a Thanos shirt as we speak. A show similar to Wonder man and its light heartedness. The MCU needs shows like this to contrast the very super serious stories that we're telling and trying to take seriously. It adds dynamic, it adds range, it adds contrast and color to this world. World. And I for one, am all for it. So was she Hulk perfect? No. Was it for everyone? Definitely not. But looking back, I don't think it deserved the reputation it received. What I see now is a funny, experimental, comic book accurate sitcom that took risks, tried something different, and was judged far more harshly than many other Marvel projects. And maybe that's why, years later, I'm still willing to stand here and offer a defense. The verdict, not guilty. And that is beyond reasonable doubt. You know, and I went through almost this whole episode without even mentioning the many villains that she Hulk did have, like Titania and intelligentsia. The whole story involving intelligentsia. I didn't hate that last episode. I thought it was fun when she broke into Marvel Studios and changed her ending. I mean, that is the most she Hulk thing I think that could have been done. She wanted to change the narrative. She knew she was in a Marvel show slash movie. She compared it to all the other movies. She kind of pointed out that she's, you know, there's not many female led superhero movies and shows, you know, in the mcu. And I think that's a fair point. We don't want it. Yeah. I don't like the people who, who use the phrase mcu. Whenever a single woman comes on screen and tries to be a superhero. Let's be honest, that's a little bit outdated now. I think we need both genders to play superheroes because everyone and anyone can look up at that screen and see themselves in that character. That's what's so great about so many of the heroes we've come to know and love over the years. So, yes, your honor, I would like a season two and I would like to see Jennifer Walters Tatiana Maslany's version, AKA she Hulk and future Marvel projects. Please don't cut her. Please don't make this something you erase in the secret Wars. Apparent reset. Bring her in. Give her some cameos. I'm telling you, I think in the long haul, we'll all be happier Marvel fans because of it. So thank you so much for being here. If you want to rate the show, give it five stars, a thumbs up. Wherever you're listening, leave a review. It goes the longest way possible. I know you're out there and it means the world that you're listening. I want more people to be a part of this experience with us. Join our discord. It's in the notes section of this episode. You can talk anything and everything. I want your take. Did you hate this show? Give me. Give me some reasons why. You can also email marvel maniacpodgmail.com with your thoughts on concerns, questions. Don't dogpile me. This is my take. I completely respect yours. And if you're going to bring it, just bring it with respect. This has been Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest on Marvel Maniac and MCU After Show. And until next time, Avengers disassemble.