#190 – Shang-Chi Deserves More: Rings, Legacy, and a Cornerstone Avenger

Hello, and welcome back to Marvel Maniac and MCU After Show. This is your host, Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest. And today we are finally giving Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings the episode it truly deserves. So I've covered this before, way back, but honestly, that version never felt right. It was during a very small period where the audio on the podcast was not great. We have one review down there from that time. Still like the show, but the audio. I didn't have my microphone. I was in between microphones, and I felt like I was trying to force every little single detail about Shang Chi, like the way I used to do podcasts. If you go back for a binge of Marvel Maniac, you will find a slow burn change up to the style we do today. But today is about Shang Chi. I want to talk about this movie and why it really matters emotionally in the MCU and in the bigger mythos of Marvel. So I did see Shang Chi in theaters, and I loved it. This was right towards the beginning of Marvel Maniac and four years. We'll touch on the length of time between those four years and now and expectations I had about this character and this fantastic actor, Simu Liu, and the grand release date for this movie. September 3, 2021. Some of you probably like me, maybe around my age. I'm 30 something. I'm 34 years old. And if you're like me, you feel that this time went by very quickly. But at the same time, you're wondering, where the hell is the sequel? There are some younger fans who may have seen this as a kid in theaters that they've gone throughout their entire high school career, and they still haven't seen a sequel to this movie. That makes it even more of a lifetime away. And I don't think that Shang Chi is getting the love and praise it deserves because it set itself up with a fantastic leading man, a great supporting cast, and a story that was just beginning. It felt like the beginning of a bigger franchise. It felt like an Iron Man, Captain America, Thor origin story in quality and also in its own way. And it painted its own broad strokes. And that's why I feel like I want to talk about this movie again. I haven't talked about it in a while. Why? Well, where's the relevance to this Marvel? Like, we need more of this. We needed him to cameo by now. He's gonna be a part, and his Simu Liu is. Is literally voicing him in the Marvel Zombie show. So we get, like, technically the next version of Shang Chi. He might have been in a couple what if episodes, but definitely not a center story. His dad when we was in a what if episode, I think it believe. I don't know if it was season two or three. I get those mixed up. But I'll say this, that episode was really great. And we need more of the ten rings. We need more Simu leave. We need more of this future Marvel empire building a brand new foundation that will carry us another 10 years. And when I saw the movie in theaters, where I was getting to it first was I really loved it and I brought it home and I wasn't. I didn't feel worthy. And this is going to go into our episode 200. It's going to be a how Marvel Maniac started, why we took so many breaks along with an Infinity War bonus episode. Because every hundred episodes are going to be talking about my favorite Marvel movie, Avengers Infinity War, which we did on our first hundredth episode with Ryan Airy of Screen Crush. I would definitely check back and listen to that one. A very fun analyzation, if that's a word on Thanos. And the bigger picture for Thanos. And this is more of like a celebration of the four year anniversary of Shang Chi. Because where I'm sitting today, it's the 9th of September, so we're a little before a week and four years since this movie came out. It just blows my freaking mind. So let's start with the heart. Shangchi feels like a movie that opens its arms to you. It's action packed, yes, but it never drags. It's light and tone, very colorful and it's just not empty. It's an escape. And for me, it stands super tall as a corner of the MCU that feels completely its own. And I always wondered after Endgame, what would a movie take to match up to these other origin stories of these heroes leading to an Avengers movie? When I saw Shang Chi, that was the answer to that question. So one of the smartest choices that Marvel made was not forcing a love story in this movie. Not every superhero movie needs a love story, and in a sense it is a love story, but more about the love of family. And I wouldn't even say found family because it's the same family that disband and his father is just the antagonist of the movie. So it's more about personal family love. And Katie's friendship really grounds Shawn. And I think Katie was just a great comedic relief and just a great friend to Shawn. I mean, she's a fun character. Their dynamic is Fun. And I really like that. It feels authentic, refreshing, and lets the story just breathe without cliches. And I think that's very important. Now, let's talk a little bit about Wenwu, the original holder of the Ten Rings, one of the most tragic villains Marvel's given us. And there was a point, maybe for a thousand years or so, in which he conquered the world and built this criminal enterprise underground, behind assassinations, behind so many different faces, and he's hidden in the shadows all this time. Well, he. He finds the truest love of his life and that stops. And he decides to put the rings down. She's the peace, a moment of peace, a moment of change in this man who has been infinitely living, and these rings keeping him alive all this time. So it's tragic in the sense that he does give up that life. He becomes a good father, he has great memories, he changes in a sense. But then his wife tragically dies. And he doesn't, from that point on, he doesn't want domination for domination's sake. He wants his wife back. And his whole journey is about love turned into obsession. There's so much great dialogue and build up between Sean and his dad that the tragedy towards the end of the movie really sticks even harder because the final scene with Wenwu, after he has conquered or trying to conquer Talo, where his wife was from, he hears her voice, she is calling to him, and he's sort of manipulated by a demon. And I don't know if that opening in his brain and his mind to have that connection with the demon has to do with him holding the 10 rings, because the 10 rings just definitely seem like this cursed power where you get immense power, you get to use them, wield them, hold them, however it can turn on you. And that power is unknown. So it might taint you a little bit, might make you a darker person, might darken your soul, might give you, I don't know. We. We're yet to see. And that's what's so interesting. We don't see any really that much of Shangchi using the actual 10 rings. So it's very interesting. We'll get into that. It's just the fact that when he realizes it was a trap after fighting his own son, the gut punch is just when he passes the rings to Shangchi because he realizes that his son was correct, that this was a trap, that his wife, you can't just bring her back. And no matter all the power immortality you have been able to conquer and wield in his lifetime. And he Couldn't save her. And what he really wanted to do was save his whole family. And all along, it wasn't that Sean didn't love his father, it's that he did. But he couldn't save him. And he tried. He. And that moment hits very hard when he transfers those rings. So when I walked out of the theater of this movie, I was in awe. I wanted to come back and see it again. Most thing, mostly I never am able to really truly do that. However, this movie stuck with me. And the thing that bothers me and always has bothered me is I could never really put a name on or point on why I had trouble covering it. Number one was that it was one of the first few movies on the podcast that I was covering from theaters, and I didn't take notes in the theaters. So what I have to do is just go straight off a memory, which, honestly, if you've seen this movie a couple times, you remember the big beats. It's kind of good to look back at. You remember the fights and the bus fight and the big demon door and especially the dragon at the end. Oh, my goodness. I just love the contrast in this movie from, you know, action kung fu movie, where honestly, you're not thinking too much about the supernatural powers of the MCU. Yeah, we have the 10 rings and that's about the only thing then we see. We also see the Abomination fighting in a. In a pit, which spins off into a she Hulk episode. Very cool. But the fact that I left that theater feeling he was definitely going to be a core Avenger, I couldn't vocalize why, and I lost my voice for a little bit there. So I definitely, in retrospect, still want to say that that was one of my favorite Marvel movie going experiences. Why I didn't have any expectations going in. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know if I was gonna love the characters. I was pretty much sure that Marvel wouldn't mess anything up. That's where I was at that point, you know, bouncing off of Endgame. The best feeling was I was actually able to say Marvel is in a place where I trust them with stories and they're not gonna let us down. And I'm sorry to say it, but Marvel has let us down a little bit with some of the, like, moving around of things and maybe rushing a couple projects. I'm way too nice and not as good a critic, and that's just me. I really literally just try to find the best in things. I. If there's plot holes. I like making sense of them and making head canon for them, but there wasn't much of that in this movie. This movie brought in all original story and it was comfortable. The colors popped, like I said, and the stakes were high. But they felt fun with the actor, Trevor. Trevor Slattery, I think his name is, who's going to be in the show Wonder man that we'll be covering in December of this year. And by then in December, we'll be a year away from Doomsday. Put your bets down now. Are they going to push Doomsday up again? They haven't even finished the script. And I think that that fact is going around that they haven't finished the script. But what I'm thinking is they do have the idea of the script. They have the emotional beats, they have the finale. They have everything that's gonna happen. But I believe that what it means is they haven't finished the script, is they haven't written the dialogue, the characters going through what they're going through in these big moments. They have the bullet points, but they still need to fill in the end. And you know what? The fact that they're tackling the movie with such sharp precision, making sure that the outline is going to match the fights that they're filming and whatnot, whether there's some drama on the set, it's bound to happen. This has been one of the big. It's probably going to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest Avengers movie ever. And I can only hope that Simu Leo Shangi is in this movie, and I want to see him as a core avenger. I do not want this movie to fall back wayside. I did love eternals, but not like I love this one. So let's zoom out. Where does Shang Chi fit in the mcu? Well, let's just start with the rings. They're relics, right? The ten Rings. And I'm talking about the literally ring, literal rings. They're not another Infinity Stone in the comics. I believe they are literal 10 rings that Wenwu, the Mandarin, the typical Mandarin villain, he doesn't like that name in this movie. However, that's who he is. That's what he's known as. He wore literal 10 rings, so that, like, kind of gives like an Infinity Stone type factor. So instead they went with these ancient, mysterious super rings that I'd say maybe one of the most unique powers, slash weapons in the mcu. Up there with Thor's hammer, Mjolnir. I. I love the look of the Ten rings. And I love how they're utilized. They're very. It's a very cool set piece and action piece and all these action scenes. Even to see when Wu conquer our whole army at the beginning. Yeah, it's just insanely cool right now. Look, the first sign of a big sequel needed is when Wu lived for centuries and we don't even see how he got the rings. We just don't know. And that's very exciting. That's story fuel. That's a flashback waiting to happen. It's probably a big deal, you know, and I'm thinking they had plans for a lot of this. And this is one of the few times I'll mention it because I could go on a broken record about this. But what I really think happened here is not getting a sequel super soon was the fact that Shang Chi's rings were probably going to be tied back to Kang the Conqueror in one way or another. And that story got botched. We don't need to talk about why. You know, we've gone over. It's. It's kind of a curse that it gave the mcu. But it's their chance to climb out of that pit. They still have a chance with these Avengers movies. And let's just hope the Russo brothers don't aren't in over their heads this time. They can make another Infinity War. My all time favorite movie of all time. All time favorite movie all time. That's. That's staying in. It's just the fact that there's a lot to think about after this movie of where he could go forward. You know, there's this post credit scene with Wong and Bruce Banner and Captain Marvel where they look like force ghosts, but they're really just projections. And it's just huge because Shang Chi instantly belongs in that room. With the Avengers, the chemistry felt completely natural. And then there's the beacon in that post same post credit scene. Even if Kang wasn't the original plan, it still works. It's a vague plot device. The rings are calling to something cosmic. If it was supposed to be Kang, then change it to Doom or rework it so it works into the current story instead of just letting that post credit scene drift off like quite a few of them have in this saga. And of course there are theories the rings connected to Kamala's bangles, to Kang's arsenal, even to multiversal weapons. More of them. You know how many Kang variants wielded this or that. They might just be remnants of the first multiversal war, which we learn has happened. Galactus lived before that time. I don't know. I'm bringing that up because it's part of the timeline. This saga has definitely been going back in time and laying more groundwork, like through his hurdles and even through this movie because Wenwu has been conquering the earth for a long time. And then there's Shoe Xiaoling and I'm sorry, I'm doing the best I can with that name. Shangchi's sister, she, in the post post credit scene is. Is announced and shown to us that she's now leading the 10 rings on her own. The organization, not the weapons. The mythic item that Shuni still holds as his now is his. It's his burden, if it is ever to be a burden to carry. And that just can't be a throwaway that I'm setting that up. The 10 rings have shaped history, assassinations, and political power. I mean, they matter. And they can't just act like this movie didn't happen. They set so much backbone and they filled in so many gaps that this makes the movie itself and the story of Shangchi that much bigger and more accepted into the greater Marvel Cinematic Universe. Now, it is not confirmed anywhere that specifically this movie sequel got put off because of Kang. There's not any sources telling us that. However, I think we can assume at the very best to try and piece together that it's not very complicated. This character was beloved, the movie did well, and they had a story planned for him that completely fell wayside when Kang did. And what really bothers me about this especially is that I figured that they can manage to pull the King storyline to a finish in Doomsday. You know, Dune taking out the Council of Kings is probably the most fan requested thing, so that probably won't even happen. But it also could tell me that they might be waiting a little bit longer, maybe post Secret wars, to bring Kang back into the story and to pay off Shang Chi's bigger story. Even if they wanted to rework Secret wars and the first Doomsday before Secret wars, there's a slight rumor via a couple channels that I watch that there might be a secret third Avengers movies in this. In these two movies. So we don't know. Spider Man, Brand New Day can probably be like a Captain America Civil War type movie where there's so many Marvel characters that it's almost like Avengers 2.0 or 1.5. The thing is about Shang Chi specifically and his sister Shu, which I don't know if it's exactly Shu but that's how it sounds when I. I looked up pronunciation. A good plot twist would be, yeah, she's building the 10 rings for world domination again. Or maybe there will be that greater Avengers level threat to where Sean can find his sister and the Ten Rings. The army, the, you know, remnants of. Of what she's ruling could go towards Shangchi's side in a future fight in a multiversal war. You know, the 10 rings could not necessarily be the good guys, but they could be allies instead of what we're thinking, you know, what might be another whole movie of him going up against his sister like he went against his dad. They kind of rekindled something, him and his sister in this first movie. So it would make sense if a greater threat than humans, like more aliens, Kane the Conqueror, Dr. Doom, anything along that line. If, if they come, he could maybe somehow rally his sister to his side and maybe she'll join him right away. Because Earth, it's just like Peter Parker says in Infinity War. I can't be your friendly neighborhood Spider man if there's no neighborhood to protect. So the 10 rings could be an army that fights behind the two siblings and could really force. Not force, but put together a powerful force of. Of culmination of exceeding expectations and everything coming together and tied in a perfect bow. Somehow the 10 rings organization can turn good opposite an opposite Hydra. They turn. They get infiltrated by good, they start to get used for good. And all of a sudden the army is belonged belong to the siblings and not just the sister. That is just a fan theory, but at one point, all we can really do is speculate, right? My point is, just because they moved the Kang story doesn't mean they can't go on and remake and redesign this story. Because, you know, the future is vague. They don't tell you what the waypoint in the wing the rings are. They don't tell you what's going to happen with his sister. It all can be guessed or assumed. And if this movie were to exceed expectations, it would adapt to the current story. And that might be part of the problem, I'll say with so many characters coming up in these Avengers movies that they're trying to tell a very distinct story between a million different characters. And that might be pretty hard, but the way they did that was through Thanos in Infinity War. He became the main character, while all the Avengers we love and knew, you know, took took side parts. But it worked. It just worked. And I hope we at least get Shang Chi in, in Doomsday. And Secret wars because I think he needs to be defined as a part of the Avengers now. It's. It's about time. Now here's where Shangchi gets even deeper for me. The mythology and the morality of the rings themselves. Now acquiring the rings, when Shangchi finally gets them, it's kind of like completing his inventory in a video game is the best way I could describe it. It's the whole movie. He's killing, kicking ass, and he proves himself as just a great martial artist. And then he gets the rings and it just makes him the full on hero. Gives him that full on hero energy. You know what I mean? The final weapon, the ultimate power up. But that power comes with a curse. We've seen it. Notice that? Wen wu's ring, his dad, the rings, they glow blue when he's using them. Blue power flows through them. Shang chi power is gold when he holds the ring. That is visual storytelling. And it's a light versus dark side, in my opinion. Like Star wars in a sense. Maybe even exactly like that. Because technically, Star wars is a Marvel comic as well. We won't get into that today. That might be a fun episode in the future though. But there is kind of a light side and a dark side to the power that's being wielded through these rings. And the biggest thing is Sean remembers his mom and the. The light she brought into his life and him wielding the wings. The rings. The wings, yeah. It's funny. The thing is, him wielding them with that power, golden power, is not just a mistake at all. It's something that needs to be explored and explained, in my opinion. And maybe that connected back to King. The thing that bothers me is anything can be connected back to Kang, can be rewritten because there hasn't been too many Kang drops. Or the fact that these artifacts were meant to go back and have it explained by the fact that Kang put them there for one reason or another. I don't care if you rewrite that. Nobody even knew. We're just speculating. And honestly, we want the sequel already. Really, I want to see the sequel. But I do wonder with. With Sean now holding the rings, these immortal, powerful weapons, could he get maybe a little bit too brutal? Maybe even cross some moral and ethical lines? Could we see a storyline where Sean realizes the rings are too dangerous and his full circle story could be trying to return them back to their origin? That's where the moral weight is, is here's how I see this movie as a trilogy, right? Shangi fights with the rings in Avengers Avengers level battles and whatnot. But by the end of his trilogy. Right. Maybe his third movie should come last after his Avengers appearances. He rejects immortality to keep his humanity. And that would be a very full circle story for him, from inheriting his father's burden to doing kind of reclaiming honor from his father's origin because his father did some horrible things. You know, we love our parents. My. My parents never did anything like this. But it's a complex situation. So to honor his dad, maybe he'll take back the legacy and use the rings for good. But then start to see the power in his wielding of the wings. Rings turn blue. I'm going to keep every time I say wings in there because it's funny. It's kind of like, you know, Thor's hammer cap shield, Tony's arc reactor sl, Iron man suit itself. I think it's going to become such a staple in his life, even to him. I think he's going to, you know, have some sort of like a symbiotic relationship with the Rings, and there's going to be a little bit more danger to worry about that dark arc that he can go on knowing the history of them and the fact that he's technically an immortal person now by holding them. And let's bring ourselves right back around to the most frustrating part again. It's been four years since this movie came out, and Shang Chi hasn't even had any sequel announced. And that's just wild. This movie is one of the most thrilling, layered original Marvel films that has been made. Simu Liu should be positioned as a cornerstone avenger, not just waiting on the sidelines. That was their plan for him. The first movie did so well, so many people liked it. Why? Why not? I actually sound a little bit mad, and I might be, because it's just another opportunity kind of wasted by Marvel. And I'd say don't throw it away because you haven't done it yet. I say fully embrace it. Move forward with him as a main Avenger, a big character who deserves a trilogy, maybe more. And I want him as a morals cornerstone of these movies going forward. That's what they set him up as. Like what I was talking about earlier. There could be even, like the new movie could be before Secret Wars. In between Doomsday and Secret Wars, Shang Chi and his sister unite the ten Rings against this multiversal threat. You know, and that's the kind of movie that expands the MCU while staying personal. I would love for that placeholder movie in the middle to be Shang Chi and the Legend of the Multiverse, or whatever the heck it's going to be called. Legend of the Multiverse. Something way more cool than that. So that is Shang Chi, a movie that gives us action, friendship, tragedy, bus fights, which I never talked about, and mystery. There's a lot to talk about when it comes to these movies. But in, in all honesty, I wanted to touch on the potential of of it as a series while also touching on the main film. This is a film that opened its arms and gave the MCU a brand new hero who deserves more. Simu Leo is ready, Shang Chi is ready and the fans are ready for more. And that is Shang Chi, a movie that gave us action, friendship, tragedy and mystery. It's a film that opened its arms and gave the MCU a brand new hero who deserves more. Well, it is that time again. We are already done with this episode and I gotta say, I love talking about this and I hope some of my predictions, slash hopes come true. Because we need this sequel. We need more original stories, original heroes like, like Shang Chi. Join our expanding community on our Patreon link tree. In the description of this episode. Don't sleep on it. We post minisodes every Saturday and if you'd like to support the show in any way, there's a couple of tiers you can do it. It would mean the world to me and we would love to have you join our greater community on Patreon and put you on our wall of heroes right up there with us. Michael Finney. He will get announced because he is our Patreon sidekick. He's not a sidekick. He's actually a hero. Okay. He's my hero. Shout out to Mike Finney. I talk to him a lot. That Mike Finney is actually becoming like a staple of this show. Maybe we'll have him on one day. Maybe he'll be. If he's open to it. He's a very cool guy. He's very, very into Marvel and he's been a very great supporter of the show. So I can't help but shout out one of our early and especially amazing community members, Michael Finney. Thank you, Michael. And thank you, audience, so much for listening. I'm Eric Cicada, aka Mr. Honest. Check out our link tree for all my socials and don't forget to follow me on one or a few of them. Just so you know, any changes, future episodes. And just to support the show, thank you so much again for being here. And. And until next time, Avengers disassemble.